Ed Kazmirski's Taurus
11-15-2015, 01:09 PM
#2626
A little information: The picture came from Dieter from Germany. He has a great interest in vintage pattern planes. He told me he received the picture from Urs Leodolter, (Swiss champion pilot), as part of a collection. I am still inquiring who the people are. Here is what Dieter says in his first e-mail:
I got from Urs Leodolter the „StreilCollection“. About Mr.Streil: Mr. Streils was a Swiss business man and runs a Hobby Shop inSwitzerland. ...... Mr.Streil was a closelyfriend and fan of the Giezendanner`s and he followed them to many competitions.He was at this time an excellent photographer and took a lot of pictures. Urs got the complete collection from Mr.Streil`s heritage, (i.e.estate?), but the pictures were in miserable condition. The pictures were kept many years in a cellar and they are almost (stuck) together “together glued” and “rolled”.
I got from Urs Leodolter the „StreilCollection“. About Mr.Streil: Mr. Streils was a Swiss business man and runs a Hobby Shop inSwitzerland. ...... Mr.Streil was a closelyfriend and fan of the Giezendanner`s and he followed them to many competitions.He was at this time an excellent photographer and took a lot of pictures. Urs got the complete collection from Mr.Streil`s heritage, (i.e.estate?), but the pictures were in miserable condition. The pictures were kept many years in a cellar and they are almost (stuck) together “together glued” and “rolled”.
see this post, post 1032 of ''Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth.''
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/clas...l#post12127513
I did recognize a lot of interesting details in photographs that show up in the thread and also remember these all when ever publiced.
Taurus Flyer
Last edited by Taurus Flyer; 11-15-2015 at 01:11 PM.
11-15-2015, 01:43 PM
#2627
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Detail of this photograph,
World Champion Pattern Flying, Genk 1963 Ralph Brooke (of the USA!!! gents) with the transmitter strapped on, is standing behind the Orion. More details known.
Taurus Flyer
Yes I agree that it DOES look like Ralph Brooke--thanks for letting us know. I freely admit I was wrong in my initial opinion, and I will always admit it if I am. I didn't spend enough time studying the picture before posting it, but even so, we've had an interesting conversation talking about it. For me, finding out the truth and getting to the bottom of an issue is more important than whether I'm right or wrong. Finding the truth was the whole idea behind this thread.
If you know "more details", will you share them with us?
Duane
World Champion Pattern Flying, Genk 1963 Ralph Brooke (of the USA!!! gents) with the transmitter strapped on, is standing behind the Orion. More details known.
Taurus Flyer
Yes I agree that it DOES look like Ralph Brooke--thanks for letting us know. I freely admit I was wrong in my initial opinion, and I will always admit it if I am. I didn't spend enough time studying the picture before posting it, but even so, we've had an interesting conversation talking about it. For me, finding out the truth and getting to the bottom of an issue is more important than whether I'm right or wrong. Finding the truth was the whole idea behind this thread.
If you know "more details", will you share them with us?
Duane
11-17-2015, 03:37 PM
#2628
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Never mind Cees, (you're probably too busy to share those details you were talking about anyway), but now the details have come out first-hand from Wolfgang Matt. Dieter e-mailed him and got the correct story. It wasn't Genk, and it wasn't 1963. Here is what Wolfgang told his friend Dieter, who shares them with us:
This picture was taken by Mr.Streil in 1965. Ralph Brooks traveled directly to Liechtenstein to visit the Matt family after he won his second World Championship in Sweden . The picture was taken on the Liechtenstein airfield used by the family. This Orion belonged to Ludwig Matt, the father of Wolfgang Matt.The young man is Wolfgang Matt. The balding man on right side was a member of local Liechtenstein Club. The other 2 guys Wolfgang couldn't remember; they were apparently American friends of Ralph Brooks. The plane later crashed due to radio failure and was destroyed.
You can see the Club area of the Liechtenstein field in the background. Today this building is closed, but it has the same outside lines as then…
It’s a high quality historical photo…
This picture was taken by Mr.Streil in 1965. Ralph Brooks traveled directly to Liechtenstein to visit the Matt family after he won his second World Championship in Sweden . The picture was taken on the Liechtenstein airfield used by the family. This Orion belonged to Ludwig Matt, the father of Wolfgang Matt.The young man is Wolfgang Matt. The balding man on right side was a member of local Liechtenstein Club. The other 2 guys Wolfgang couldn't remember; they were apparently American friends of Ralph Brooks. The plane later crashed due to radio failure and was destroyed.
You can see the Club area of the Liechtenstein field in the background. Today this building is closed, but it has the same outside lines as then…
It’s a high quality historical photo…
Last edited by kingaltair; 11-17-2015 at 03:57 PM.
11-18-2015, 09:55 AM
#2629
Last edited by 8178; 11-18-2015 at 10:02 AM.
11-18-2015, 12:52 PM
#2630
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I'll see that Dieter gets the message. I didn't think you were a fan of "modified" planes. I just visited a guy in Texas with a Crusader from a Eureka kit. Love the cowl, although the plane is "stand-way-off' scale of the original. What are you planning to modify?
Duane
Duane
11-18-2015, 10:50 PM
#2634
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Hmmmm...well I guess it's pretty hard to put something past you isn't it. What I meant was for you to guess the first names, (except for the one where the first name is given)...then you're supposed to guess the last name.
Do you "buy" that explanation?
Duane
Do you "buy" that explanation?
Duane
03-20-2016, 01:24 PM
#2637
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Curt Dimberg flew his RC planes in the same era as Ed Kazmirski. Curt built a plane with a wingspan of 100 inches, and placed 6th with it, in the 1966 NATS. According to this thread, it was a Simla.
03-20-2016, 02:07 PM
#2638
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Well, I have at least 50 questions I could ask...a couple for now:
1) Who led the trend to larger planes?--I would think it was Ed, but I'm not sure.
2) Does he have pictures of the Simla he could share?
3) How many contests did Ed participate in with the Simla? How about other Chicago pilots?
Curt is very welcome on the forum
Duane
1) Who led the trend to larger planes?--I would think it was Ed, but I'm not sure.
2) Does he have pictures of the Simla he could share?
3) How many contests did Ed participate in with the Simla? How about other Chicago pilots?
Curt is very welcome on the forum
Duane
03-20-2016, 02:15 PM
#2639
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Ed Kazmirski and Curt Dimberg
I don't know how to paste a photo or pdf into this page. However if you google:
curt dimberg rc airplane magazine
You will see an article from Aero Modeller magazine.
Curt just let me know that he and Ed Kazmirski collaborated in order to explore new airfoils, in order to facilitate aerobatic flying. The Clark Y airfoil is a flat bottomed airfoil, very efficient for level flite. He recalls that they aimed for a wing that was 60% efficient in 'normal flight' and 40% efficent in 'upside- down' flight.
He said that the FAA rules limited the engine size to .60 cubic centimeters of displacement, which limited the horsepower output. So they would purchase 5 gallons of methane and a small quantity of nitroglycerine, which they would mix at the field before a competition.
They also had an extra engine, because they would occasionally blow up in the midst of a competition.
He said that they kept the clearances between the piston and cylinder wall as tight as possible, by lapping the surfaces very gradually, running the engine up and down it's rev range, then examining the surfaces for wear patterns, then lapping those areas, over and over again.....
curt dimberg rc airplane magazine
You will see an article from Aero Modeller magazine.
Curt just let me know that he and Ed Kazmirski collaborated in order to explore new airfoils, in order to facilitate aerobatic flying. The Clark Y airfoil is a flat bottomed airfoil, very efficient for level flite. He recalls that they aimed for a wing that was 60% efficient in 'normal flight' and 40% efficent in 'upside- down' flight.
He said that the FAA rules limited the engine size to .60 cubic centimeters of displacement, which limited the horsepower output. So they would purchase 5 gallons of methane and a small quantity of nitroglycerine, which they would mix at the field before a competition.
They also had an extra engine, because they would occasionally blow up in the midst of a competition.
He said that they kept the clearances between the piston and cylinder wall as tight as possible, by lapping the surfaces very gradually, running the engine up and down it's rev range, then examining the surfaces for wear patterns, then lapping those areas, over and over again.....
03-20-2016, 02:43 PM
#2640
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Hi Duane and fellow RCers,
In response to your questions, 1.)
Curt Dimberg said that he and Ed Kazmirski worked together on developing the larger planes. They realized that a longer wingspan would facilitate smoother flight, which is necessary in aerobatic competition. But they were limited by lack of horsepower, which of coarse limited the weight it could be. And remember, the airplane's radio receiver had vacuum tubes, and required a dry cell battery. It was both large and heavy!
So every component had to be lightened.
2.) Curt does not have photos of the Simla or Ed's Taurus. He's really pleased that the photos and text from Aero Modeller is on the internet.
We're going to continue with this discussion awhile later, as it's now time to eat.
Tom and Curt
In response to your questions, 1.)
Curt Dimberg said that he and Ed Kazmirski worked together on developing the larger planes. They realized that a longer wingspan would facilitate smoother flight, which is necessary in aerobatic competition. But they were limited by lack of horsepower, which of coarse limited the weight it could be. And remember, the airplane's radio receiver had vacuum tubes, and required a dry cell battery. It was both large and heavy!
So every component had to be lightened.
2.) Curt does not have photos of the Simla or Ed's Taurus. He's really pleased that the photos and text from Aero Modeller is on the internet.
We're going to continue with this discussion awhile later, as it's now time to eat.
Tom and Curt
01-29-2018, 01:08 PM
#2641
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Well, some time has passed and we have some news relevant to this thread. Please go way back to page 34 post 836 posted by Ray about Ed's very cool and intriguing Taurus Pusher for the background information. Ray posted a small "articlet", (small article), from the May 1965 MAN of the "Pusher" pictures possibly taken at the Toledo show, (apparently 1965). Well look what's happened!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by kingaltair; 01-29-2018 at 02:05 PM.
01-29-2018, 01:46 PM
#2642
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The Taurus Pusher generated a great deal of interest back in 2009 when we first were talking about it. Those of us who really were deeply involved with this thread back then eventually noticed that the wing seems (and probably is), IDENTICAL to the Taurus II wing. Ed apparently took the T2 wing which was from Ed’s most advanced (and final)Taurus, [which I still have], and used it for the Taurus Pusher. That’s why I was able to give Guido Patroncini, (creator of the 2015 replica of Tom Brett's swept wing TBX-1 featured in the November 2016 issue of Model Aviation), exact specs on the wing when he contacted me only a couple months ago. Guido has since proven once more that he is a master builder, and has the gift of being able to make excellent educated engineering choices while recreating famous “one-of-a-kind” planes when very little hard data is available. In this case, only four pictures of the pusher, (two of Les Fruh's pusher), were available.
Comments from Guido about is new miodel:
The maiden flight was very successful. It flies very well
.
The design was simple: Ed mentioned that it was very sensitive on the elevator, therefore I decided to take the length of the fuse of the original Taurus. The stab was chosen as the original. Now I assumed a certain wing position and calculated the CG location. Then I put the weights of the important components on a sheet of wood in order to find a balance (motor in the back Battery and ESC in Front) The balance point I put in the area of the CG and fine-tuned it. I tried to avoid additional weight. This defined the length of the nose and the rear part. It came out pretty well. Maybe I have to put in very little weight in the nose, I received the def motor only today and will balance it tomorrow. The CG calculation was done with 2 different programs, the results came out more or less identical. The total weight of the plane will be slightly less than 2.5 kg (5.5Pounds) which is light for a ship with 5S and 5000mAh.I keep you posted when the first flight has happened. Guido
Duane
A very interesting story.Guido is indeed a master builder !!!
Comments from Guido about is new miodel:
The maiden flight was very successful. It flies very well
.
The design was simple: Ed mentioned that it was very sensitive on the elevator, therefore I decided to take the length of the fuse of the original Taurus. The stab was chosen as the original. Now I assumed a certain wing position and calculated the CG location. Then I put the weights of the important components on a sheet of wood in order to find a balance (motor in the back Battery and ESC in Front) The balance point I put in the area of the CG and fine-tuned it. I tried to avoid additional weight. This defined the length of the nose and the rear part. It came out pretty well. Maybe I have to put in very little weight in the nose, I received the def motor only today and will balance it tomorrow. The CG calculation was done with 2 different programs, the results came out more or less identical. The total weight of the plane will be slightly less than 2.5 kg (5.5Pounds) which is light for a ship with 5S and 5000mAh.I keep you posted when the first flight has happened. Guido
Duane
A very interesting story.Guido is indeed a master builder !!!
Last edited by kingaltair; 01-29-2018 at 02:10 PM. Reason: removal of duplicate text
01-30-2018, 03:00 PM
#2644
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Guido's Comments
here is a youtube link from Urs about the today flight. Unfortunately the weather was not good, windy and the cameraman (me) a lousy professional.Urs (Urs Leodolter--pilot), said that the pusher would fly even better than the original. All manouvers (are) very stable (loops rolls cuban 8, cuban8 inverted spin but except turns. The rudder is just too small. I expected that, but for reason to look as much as possible like the original I did not make it larger. The sensitivity on the elevator was absolutely normal. Maybe the modern prop systems with expo (35%) helped. It is fun to fly it even in windy weather.
Guido
Guido
01-31-2018, 06:31 AM
#2647
Interesting and nice to see. This must be another version of the pusher, note the lack of a ventral fin and rudder, replaced with a rudder on the vertical fin and the upright engine installation.
Ok, who is going to do the flop? It looks like an Orion fuselage (longer nose?) and wing (note the conventional ailerons), inverted engine and the Mooney inspired horizontal stab.
Ok, who is going to do the flop? It looks like an Orion fuselage (longer nose?) and wing (note the conventional ailerons), inverted engine and the Mooney inspired horizontal stab.
Last edited by Michaelj2k; 01-31-2018 at 10:09 AM.
01-31-2018, 10:26 AM
#2648
That must be Les Fruh's variation on the theme, Ray assumed this in post #918 at page 37. He had posted the two pictures from the 1965 Toledo show. I assume Les Fruh tried a different vertical tail because Ed Kazmirski told his own pusher version had too little rudder effect, as expected.
As to the Flop (which was indeed called Taurus in the 1962 MAN annual, #2195 p. 88), we had dimensions from this picture in #1178 p. 48. (Cees had more in his own thread, from the annual picture posted by Ray.)
As to the Flop (which was indeed called Taurus in the 1962 MAN annual, #2195 p. 88), we had dimensions from this picture in #1178 p. 48. (Cees had more in his own thread, from the annual picture posted by Ray.)
Last edited by UStik; 01-31-2018 at 11:03 AM.
10-23-2018, 01:29 AM
#2649
3D computer reconstruction of the FLOP
For who is interested. I don’t know if I did show the (original 2 page and so reconstructed) picture in this thread before? From the MAN article as showed by Ray in page 88 and called ‘The Orion Man with his new Taurus.’(on top). In that period it was investigated and combined with all other known data and photographs (see 2) to complete the 3D computer reconstruction. 
10-23-2018, 05:03 AM
#2650
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Taurus at the AMA Museum
As a quick Sidebar, I made a visit to the AMA Museum a couple of weeks ago. Here are two photos of the Taurus that was donated, hanging from the ceiling.... Note the Playboy Bunny on the right side of the fin and the missing dorsal beneath the stabilizer. I would love to have one for my own...
