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The Poop has hit the fan !

Old 10-21-2018, 11:51 AM
  #176  
speedracerntrixie
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie
And why do you think dues would drop? The AMA home office and officers have already proven they are not financially responsible. An officer telling everyone that a meeting can't be held at a location where almost all of them are located because they aren't at the home office or trying to get an indoor flying facility built that would need to be heated and powered 100% of the time while sitting empty at least 98% of the time are far from financially responsible. A home office that has to have a retail division and a museum with a staff isn't financially responsible. The AMA is the only HOBBY ORGANIZATION I know of THAT HAS A LARGE PAID STAFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where is the financial responsibility in that? I'm sorry but I just can't believe the dues would drop if the AMA had more members since the larger checkbook would most likely lead to more extravagant spending,

Take a look at the insurance aspect alone. The more people on the policy, the better the rate. A good example is the health care offered by large corporations as compared to small companies. That alone could easily account for a drop in dues.
Any particular reason you feel the need to shout?
Old 10-21-2018, 11:54 AM
  #177  
speedracerntrixie
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie
YOU DON'T? I SURE THE HELL DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where do I start:
1) If you get caught fishing/hunting without a license, you are poaching. This is punishable by a fine and/or jail time
2) If you get caught fishing/hunting someplace that is protected/restricted, you are again poaching.
3) If you get caught with protected species due to fishing/hunting, otherwise legally, you are once again poaching
4) THE STATES AND FEDRAL GOVERNMENT CAN ENFORCE AND PROSECUTE VIOLATIONS OF THE LAWS AS REQUIRED, THE AMA DOESN'T HAVE AN ENFORCEMENT DIVISION OR THE AUTHORITY TO PROSECUTE ANYONE
5) If you lose your AMA membership, there are no repercussions of any consequence other than the possible loss of use of a flying site. If someone really wants to fly in the manner that cost them their membership that bad, they will go someplace and fly anyway.

Again more shouting, why not at least attempt to have a civil conversation. I can certainly bet that if we were sitting across a table you would not be shouting at me. At least not for very long.
Old 10-21-2018, 11:56 AM
  #178  
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Just making sure people see the point I was making. Some tend to ignore that point or try to twist it to their own purposes
Old 10-21-2018, 12:02 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Take a look at the insurance aspect alone. The more people on the policy, the better the rate. A good example is the health care offered by large corporations as compared to small companies. That alone could easily account for a drop in dues.
For any financially responsible company or organization, I would agree completely. For the AMA, who's office and officers are far from financially responsible as I stated in my post, that's not an outcome that I would be confident in believing would actually happen
Old 10-21-2018, 12:13 PM
  #180  
speedracerntrixie
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie
For any financially responsible company or organization, I would agree completely. For the AMA, who's office and officers are far from financially responsible as I stated in my post, that's not an outcome that I would be confident in believing would actually happen

In that case we simply have a difference of opinion. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. The near future may prove that either one or both of us are wrong. If that is to be me I will man up and admit being wrong. For now I am going to fly as I always have and see what if any agreements the FAA and AMA can come up with.
Old 10-21-2018, 07:44 PM
  #181  
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I rarely put in my 2c but for the good of the hobby and for everyone's info I noticed several AMA mags ago the words "as a AMA member" were added to the beginning of the safety code, indicating that if you're not a member of AMA, You're not flying within the programing of Their CBO's safety code. If that is true, legally speaking, I believe You would not be protected as a recreational hobbyist. Now You will be subject to commercial drone pilot status I believe. Separate registration for every aircraft, ***? As for the hard 400' rule, I don't like it either. I think we're all screwed and are gonna have to live with it. I fly anything and everything from turbine jets to gliders and I'm not going to quit. I will have to learn to live without loops, tail spins, split s's, and Cuban 8's. I mainly keep My AMA current so I can participate at sanctioned events as I don't belong to any clubs. I'm hoping that AMA doesn't change its coverage at non chartered sites as it wouldn't be good for some of You non-homeowners. If They do pull the coverage on non sanctioned sites, homeowners would be well advised to up Their liability coverage. usually not too expensive. Get out and have fun while You still can, land rubber side down and, don't scratch the paint.

Last edited by F-16 viperman; 10-22-2018 at 02:40 PM. Reason: clarification
Old 10-21-2018, 08:49 PM
  #182  
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One thing I'm wondering is if it would be possible for the FAA would give height waivers to allow flying higher at some of the larger events? It would be nicer if they could give a waiver for designated flying sites as well.
Old 10-21-2018, 09:33 PM
  #183  
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Sounds like You would be talking about temporary or even permanent notams. Good idea but, I think that would be hard to obtain unless, We can convince them at FAA that Our hobby is important to STEM & STEAM. Otherwise, They seem to just see Us as a bunch of fools with high tech toys. The sad fact is that FAA rules the airspace one CM from the ground to infiniti. There is no longer unclassified airspace. When We walk around now, We are in class G airspace. Pretty sad HUH?
Old 10-22-2018, 04:16 AM
  #184  
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the cost of membership will never go down as more people become members. the insurance that is attached to our membership can only go up in liability and risk, as membership numbers increase. it is that condition that largely contributes to the cost of insurance and as membership increases, so does that risk and potential for claim loss,...so, the cost of insurance can only go one way...and the AMA is not going to absorb that increase as numbers rise
yes, we get a somewhat reduced cost because of membership numbers, but if we had to buy our own private insurance, each member would be paying more than we do now, obviously,....but that rate would also climb as policy numbers rise, because of the same reason it climbs when attached to the AMA membership.
simply put,....the greater the number of policies written, the greater the risk and the higher the premium for the same coverage..
Old 10-22-2018, 11:51 AM
  #185  
mongo
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the entire "336" section was completely repealed with the signing of the new bill.
nothing that was in it is a factor anymore.
Old 10-22-2018, 12:29 PM
  #186  
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I am happy to see that someone else has realized that "336" no longer has any value and should not be referenced.
Old 10-23-2018, 03:41 AM
  #187  
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Ask anyone who knows the insurance business, and they'll tell you that rates get better as the number of policy holders increases. It's not about risk, but rather about volatility. With more customers, the numbers become more consistent year by year which lets the insurer cut margins closer without fear of being hit with a big claim and not being able to pay it.
That said, there's no way the AMA will lower membership dues if the insurance does become cheaper. They will just use that money to start a new program, raise salaries or create new positions, or increase advertising or flying site assistance.
Old 10-23-2018, 04:11 AM
  #188  
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as policy numbers rise, the likelihood of claims rise. as the likelihood of claims rise, premiums increase because of the likelihood of loss. insurance companies don't like losses, they are not in business to pay losses, they are in business to invest premiums in profitable investments. paying losses decreases their potential to make a profit. increasing premiums hedges that that loss potential. anybody who really knows anything the about the insurance industry, knows that they are not in business to pay claims who's likelihood increases with increasing policy numbers. ask anyone who lives in a state that has mandatory auto insurance laws if their premiums actually went down after the law was enacted.
Old 10-23-2018, 04:48 AM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by r ward
as policy numbers rise, the likelihood of claims rise. as the likelihood of claims rise, premiums increase because of the likelihood of loss. insurance companies don't like losses, they are not in business to pay losses, they are in business to invest premiums in profitable investments. paying losses decreases their potential to make a profit. increasing premiums hedges that that loss potential. anybody who really knows anything the about the insurance industry, knows that they are not in business to pay claims who's likelihood increases with increasing policy numbers. ask anyone who lives in a state that has mandatory auto insurance laws if their premiums actually went down after the law was enacted.
Actually, Jester is right on this one. More policies means lower rates. That said, get into an car accident and see how much the insurance company tries to low ball you. The insurance companies make their money by paying as little as they can per claim so that their books always show a profit when balanced against the premiums they charge for a policy. Just like anything else, if the insurance company can find a way to not cover a claim, they won't pay it and will come up with a way to justify rejecting said claim.
For the record, I do live in a state with mandatory auto insurance laws and saw no change in rates when that law became active. Just because having auto insurance became mandatory didn't mean anyone that didn't have it went out and got it. It just meant that they do everything they can to not get caught. If everyone had insurance, all the insurance companies would drop the "uninsured motorist" coverage since it wouldn't be needed any more
Old 10-23-2018, 06:18 AM
  #190  
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I may be wrong (It's happened once or twice in my lifetime) but I was under the impression that the AMA doesn't have one policy each for all of us 200K members , and instead has an "Umbrella" policy covering all of us AMA members as a group ? As in , there is no separate init4fun policy and Hydro Junkie policy and r ward policy like our cars have , just one big group policy covering us all . I could more easily believe the AMA has a group policy based on the raw number of members VS writing a separate policy for each of the 200K of us .
Old 10-23-2018, 09:04 AM
  #191  
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It would make sense if that is the way it's written up. What it also does is make it easier for the insurance carrier to deny a claim. Heaven knows, insurance companies are always looking for that little loophole they can exploit to not have to pay a claim.
Old 10-23-2018, 10:24 AM
  #192  
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For the most part I would agree with you. However the only claim filed with the AMA that I have first hand experience with was paid.

We had an electric glider go down in the field adjacent to ours which resulted in a fire. The property owner claimed she had hay stacks in the field that were lost to the fire. She did not. AMA took control of the claim and paid it within a few weeks. Club officials were not happy as they had told AMA staff multiple times there was no hay. Speculation on my part but I believe AMA paid the claim because it was clear that the property owner would have filed a suit against the club if AMA denied the claim thus choosing to protect the club. Bottom line is that there was no effort to find a loophole to deny the claim.
Old 10-23-2018, 11:47 AM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
For the most part I would agree with you. However the only claim filed with the AMA that I have first hand experience with was paid.

We had an electric glider go down in the field adjacent to ours which resulted in a fire. The property owner claimed she had hay stacks in the field that were lost to the fire. She did not. AMA took control of the claim and paid it within a few weeks. Club officials were not happy as they had told AMA staff multiple times there was no hay. Speculation on my part but I believe AMA paid the claim because it was clear that the property owner would have filed a suit against the club if AMA denied the claim thus choosing to protect the club. Bottom line is that there was no effort to find a loophole to deny the claim.
It could also have been a "Cover thy backside or risk losing it" move as well. To pay the claim was probably to avoid litigation rather than pay all of the legal fees and court costs a trial/hearing would have run up
Old 10-23-2018, 12:30 PM
  #194  
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Very possible. As we all know “ innocent until proven guilty “ can be quite expensive.
Old 10-28-2018, 06:06 AM
  #195  
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insurance is a risk based investment proposition, it always has been and will never not be such. an increase in membership numbers increases risk, (which it would with higher membership numbers) premiums would go up because the potential to pay claim losses goes up (it is impossible to increase risk potential and have the risk go down),......it simply does not and cannot work any other way.
if you have a room with two people in it and randomly shoot a paintball into the room, there is a small risk of hitting one of the people the risk is there , certainly, but it is comparatively small. now in that same room, if you put 100 people that room and again, shoot a paintball gun into the room, the risk of hitting one of those people goes way up,....not down.
the cost of premiums is based on the risk of having to pay a loss on a claim,.... more people, the higher the likelyhood (risk) of paying on a claim,....so the premium goes up to increase investment to cover that higher potential of loss payout. insurance cos. would like you to think it doesn't, but it does and can only go one way,.....up. they aren't in business to pay claims without being compensated for it.
wake up, pull your head out of the sand and smell the coffee !.
Old 11-01-2018, 06:20 PM
  #196  
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You've said the same thing 3 times now, r ward. Maybe you should cite some actuarial science or some commonly accepted statistical theory to prove your claim?
Old 11-04-2018, 07:04 AM
  #197  
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if you don't realize what I say is accurate,...... what good is proof ?. this isn't rocket science and there are not any hidden mystical secrets involving black magic,.....it's all common knowledge. to deny or need proof it is to is admit you know nothing about the subject matter.
Old 12-01-2018, 01:03 PM
  #198  
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So if an insurance company does anything it can to not pay my claim, even if I have never had a claim after paying overpriced premiums for 15 years, so it can take that money and try to make more off it, I say that`s pretty frickin` greedy. Oh, I know," that poor naïve man, he knows not the ways of the world". Well, nobody can ever call me greedy, and whenever I can I`ll vote with my wallet.
Old 12-01-2018, 03:02 PM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by Stickslammer
So if an insurance company does anything it can to not pay my claim, even if I have never had a claim after paying overpriced premiums for 15 years, so it can take that money and try to make more off it, I say that`s pretty frickin` greedy. Oh, I know," that poor naïve man, he knows not the ways of the world". Well, nobody can ever call me greedy, and whenever I can I`ll vote with my wallet.
Do you think that just premiums are enough to cover insurance claims of millions? Of course they invest, just like you bank does to make mortgages, and other loans... Your premiums would be insane if they couldn't invest.

Sure hope if you are woting your wallet, you are voting the ones offering to put more in it, not take more out to give it to government to spend on unconstitutional programs.
Old 12-01-2018, 07:04 PM
  #200  
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Insurance works by probability. You pay based on the probability of having to make a claim. They are profitable when they estimate the probability right across the board for all of their customers. They lose money when they get it wrong. I don't consider insurance premiums lost money. I paid for coverage of something going wrong based on probabilities. If nothing goes wrong, I guess I can call that a lost bet that I made against myself. But the companies don't just keep your money. It goes to paying claims of customers they didn't turn a profit on who had worse luck than you.

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